today we’re going to be talking about

something pretty special we’re going to

be talking about identity design a lot

of you asks about that and we have a

very special treat because master Doe is

going to be showing us how he does it

like master though let’s stick around

title card how many guys are we going to

get so in the audience we have Nicole


top for yourselves Vincent Emily nice

she’s like a professor in the camera

over here and of course we have ty the

master of the tech when there’s a lot of

masters all right let’s get this show

started let’s get started this is an

exciting episode I’m excited to learn

how you do it so what is it that why are

you doing this episode first of all

because you told me to you’re the

executive producer but no people have

asked daddy this is one of the top

requested topics actually top requested

topics top of that book so a dream it

just okay so now yes so now let’s

actually look at it so let’s stop let

start with the question of what’s the

agenda for today the agenda let’s put up

the gender tie boom there’s our agenda

so I’m going to break this down into

four parts identity versus branding and

when you get started with the design

talking about brand definition and

perhaps a way to design smarter and

hopeful I spell that correctly smarter

than I think you did yeah pretty nice

anyway any identity versa brain what are

you talking about Danny diverses

branding let’s look at this and it’s a

term that’s a buzzword branding is used

a lot in our industry and it’s used in

kind of kind of in the equal way that

you might talk about a logo so I pulled

this up this is the Nike logo yeah we

are similar and underneath it of German

it’s French okay sorry ceci n’est pas

une grande Oh

and what this means is like Magritte’s

painting this isn’t a brand this is a

Martha Graham that’s a logo or not for

no no it’s a logo and so this is all

taken from Marty Neumeier’s book the

brand gap which I love and you guys need

below party

call me maybe anyway Steve a logo is a

term used that for logo type and

designers uses in lieu of using the word

trademark which is a custom letter I

like that custom letter know why I like

the trademark logos in Greek means word

logos in the beginning was the word and

the Word was with God boom that’s deep

okay anyways it’s right on I do you know

what you’re doing okay

anyways the trademark can be a logo

symbol monogrammed emblem or other

graphic device the trademark is not the

brand itself it’s merely a symbol for it

as in with the Nike logo totally okay so

the train is you know I have a tackle

fishing you know shop and that’s my

trade and then the markets marked it

represents me sounds about right

all right great okay so what we want to

talk about is understanding of branding

and so we can’t talk about identity

design or logo design without

understanding a larger context of

branding and so I love this definition

because it’s something you can wrap my

head around a brand is a person’s gut

feeling about a product service or

company you can’t control the process

but you can’t influence it got you and

that’s from Marty’s book the break yes

and so here’s a couple illustrations

that kind of bring it home so on the

left is a guy and you’re saying to a

girl I’m a great lover and that’s

marketing god I got it and so when you

do it over the telephone saying I’m a

great lover that’s hello marketing so

over the internet at the internet

marketing what does it call email blasts

no it’s called online dating online

dating okay anyways if somebody else

says it for you trust me he’s a great


that’s called public relations what a

mouth or WOM that’s the word W and word

of mouth a mouth yeah okay wrong one and

if you keep saying I’m a great lover I’m

a great lover I’m a great lover over and

over again that’s obnoxiousness of

advertising advertisement and every

right now and if you say it with a

symbol instead of with words you’re a

graphic designer

interest off into social manifestation

is a visual manifestation of the words

yeah love it when she tells you I

understand you’re a great lover at

brandy got you so to recap branding

seemed instancing but where do you get

all those graphics from from all from

hold on don’t get ahead of me

branding it’s not what you say it is

it’s what they say it is gotcha you need

to understand this okay so now that you

understand this definition of it you’ll

never look at a logo and start telling

people it’s the brand not the brand if

you say that you’re a newbie you’re

newbie yeah okay and where do we get

this from the book a brand gap party

newmeyer liquid agency if you’re a

graphic designer and you haven’t read

this like go to Amazon and order it we

should just get people are affiliate Li

no no we’re going to

okay so we have complaints before about

not providing links I’ve done my best to

Christo in Jose’s words to provide all

the links and reference points at the

bottom all right and so when we look at

branding there are a lot of touch points

consumer touch points that define the

brand and some of those things are the

website the decor if you if you’re a

brick and mortar place graphics the

customer experience the staff and how

they treat you all those kinds of things

product logo messaging signage packaging

I’m making a lot of noise alright

alright anyways well let’s get started

right so the big client that we’re gonna

work on is oles Hawkeye Pass and it’s a

fishing lodge you fly in it’s in remote

location it’s only available by plane

float plane where is it look at it when

it was the only slogan it’s in British

Columbia kind of off the central west

coast of Canada and they’re a client but

you’re also customer correct so you know

them all excellent what is our current

logo look like it looks something like

this was a whoa nice little 70s call

they won their logo back let’s be nice

oh it’s actually great for it so I know

what a lot of designers in our audience

are going to be thinking right now that

maybe the fish could use a new

illustration it looks a little like

clipart the colors need some help

there’s the foot mark instead of an

apostrophe there’s as complex and a blue

white black on the light blue background

and so we’re ready to go

just balances so we’re on the starter

blocks and we’re ready to run because we

have all these design skills and we’re

ready to get redesign started yeah right

so all we can focus is going down the

lane and finishing fast and we’ve got

all those skills look at you and

Shutterstock images that looks good yeah

and so here I put together just a bunch

of logos like what it could be so these

are references that you found on behance

yes and they’re from very talented

designers if you need them just look

them up on behalf it’s very easy to find

great designers here’s the problem with

this is we’re going wide we’re casting a

very wide net and we’re doing a lot of

work a lot of ideation but this is how I

was taught how to design them identity

systems and logos well you haven’t that

put pen to paper yet I haven’t but I’m

if I were back kind of like eighteen

years ago I might sit down and I might

doing a lot I might start doing a lot of

sketches got it

I’m looking at rest symbol like an

anchor that seems kind of cool and you

can see the one that’s the merkel

mercury where there’s like two M’s in

there it’s beautiful they’re all

beautiful marks right they’re all very

nice can the open-air journal that’s

pretty cool too so what I’m encouraging

you guys to do is to think more and make


less because what happens that’s for me

there’s a huge gap but huge divide

between you as a designer and your

client and this seems to be like the

number one question that we get is

there’s this conflict that exists

objective reality means subjective

expectations we get that question asked

a lot which is how do I get my client

buy into my design which is really a

weird question well you know what it

might be a word question but I’ll tell

you right now I may be guilty of it

sometimes and more more so earlier in my

career we’ve all done it

we’ve all done the walk in you know

shooting without listening so the

challenge obviously is you know how do

you objectively uh represent and present

a narrative that the client feels is

theirs for me yeah if I don’t have an

objective goal what I’ll do is I’ll

design lots of things I don’t know what

I’m looking for your quantitative yeah I

like wanted yeah you’re right I’m

qualitative if the client feels like

they’re not it’s not theirs like I’m

doing it I make it I want to make them

feel good like the

part of the process does that make sense

yeah so oddly enough where I got this

definition from is from a book called

story written by Robert McKee he teaches

all the Hollywood level kind of a

listers how to craft a better script and

in story you want conflict because that

makes for drama and for an interesting

point of view but in a business

transaction you don’t want that conflict

not at all

Todd you can cut to us a little bit

during this whole thing so that people

don’t just get slide slide slide look

we’re still here

we’re behind the slide hello you put on

my shirt hello all right anyways right

so somebody this is a good book anyways

look we’re right there hey hello

everywhere we’re not just slash alright

so now we can go back as let’s so

anyways what we want to do is want to

define the brand before we get started

how do we do that well you need a

framework and you can use something like

or you can use any process that you want

but we’ve broken it down into these

steps I’m not gonna dive deep into this

but this is what every other time that

we can put a link below

like I love promising links don’t

promise a link if you’re not gonna

deliver it’s been such it is your job to

make sure there’s a link to the episode

and attributes and clean I’ll make

little bubbles like this and kind of

pull out the key words and I’m looking

for words that at least for me are kind

of more visual less abstract you know so

these are the top ones that you got from

that yeah they’re what are these yeah

the client came up with these the client

came up with this you didn’t just shoot

these out I do not got it but I did

facilitate that conversation got it so

if they gave me an abstract word I would

ask them what does that mean can we find

another word is it more like this word

when you say this do you mean this

absolutely make sense so I’m not merely

note-taking here right and you’re

participating and at facilitating yeah

so what I did was I I saw these words

that kind of seemed to group together

the ones in light blue and the ones in

dark blue and when they move right like

this whoo animation I started to think

about what the words and light blue have

in common and it’s it’s not quite luxury

but it’s refined gotcha and I like the

pairing against that of rustic these are

two well I don’t go together well they

both have are so is that alliteration

that it’s called in literature it is

literation alliteration I believe all


and then council charming old school so

what I try to do now is I try and find

photography that represents refined

rustic that’s my filter now because in

the internet there’s a million different

kinds of photos and different styles in

which this can go go down so now we’re

fine rustic I’m defining it here gotcha

and you can see that there’s a logical

progression here but more importantly

the client is seeing this narrative we

were fine rustic it’s what we came up

with from this process yep now look at

what we’re shooting back to you right so

if an image doesn’t look refined rustic

then we have some problem gotcha

so this is a well-traveled person

there’s a sense of curation and there’s

antique objects vintage things that kind

of come together create a certain mood

nothing looks brand-new

so these are mood boards you got these

references from the interweb yes one of

them actually is a photo from their

place gotcha and then I find more

typographic samples you can see here

everything is weathered a little

distress hand done so that’s the vibe

right and then I found images that kind

of can represent their Lodge – great

place it is well this is another lies

this is not their Lodge gotcha

but as they go through you know

iterations of refining their decor and

as a budget allows for it I’m sure this

will help to inform certain things yeah

this is our nation for the few it’s kind

of like the ultimate man cave yeah I

love that that’s actually awesome I

would like it oh that’s really that’s

really the clientele so and the brides

look really good and I’m not hungry

alright so anyways I I put together some

logos because this is all an identity

design assignment right mm-hm and so I

put some logos together that I feel

communicate refine rustic and so all the

way from the left to right there’s the

consistent thinking here I would be

happy with any one of these I showed all

of these to them you show this to the

client showed them every so for those of

you just joining us for the show Chris

has shown as references for the redesign

of Oli’s hack I pass logo and identity

as a whole and he showed us the

evolution of where it’s come from so

right so here we are the one on the left

is their current logo and the one on the

right it’s a sample what their logo

could look like and so when we say we’re

fine rustic the one on the left is

neither refined nor rustic so now their

old logo is off branding towards the new

positioning of the company you know to

be fair it’s not awful

I didn’t say that just in case all right

all right but the new stuff looks really

so that’s where we would propose it to

go and if you can look at this it’s a

pretty radical departure there’s no fish

in it there’s no kind of woodcut

illustration there’s no wave

there’s no chunky type we’re gonna just

focus on the word always whether the

client have a problem with that that

that we’re a fishing lodge we should

have fish in our logo well if you take

them through this whole process you

don’t get pushback you don’t get

pushback you’ve never you haven’t had

any pushback they trust you fully well

I’ll tell you where the pushback came in

and we’ll talk about that all right so

now this is for also those of you who

asked the question how do I convince my

client oh here we are so now we can

start designing

so let’s design right yeah and so as I

have buy-in from the client as to what

it’s going to look like I can start

sketching and I’m on conference called

taking notes for other meetings it

doesn’t really matter I’m just dueling

and kind of being influenced by the

direction and I’m not an expert letter

form designer but I’m drawing you can

see that scallop right you can using my

letter sign yeah and so what I’ll do now

is I’ll switch over to sketch mode in

right so I’m gonna escape out of this so

you as a creative director you’re

sketching I’m gonna sketch man all right

you’re gonna sketch man and now we have

  Design A Modern Logo | Start To Finish

the Mac yeah I’m gonna see what happens

here you can come back to us fro well

the well the Mac desktop is up on there

really so so the interesting thing about

what I’m seeing or what I see your

process two things have stood out to me

one is how you took the brand attributes

and you came up with two primary

attributes I like that a lot and that

they really represent the core I don’t

do that enough and that actually really

helps me think through some of the

projects that I’m doing right now my

consulting projects and I already can

see the mistakes that I’m making that

I’m not actually distilling it

sufficiently to to give enough clarity

to the team into the client it’s still

to open good good call mr. quantitative

all right so in front of me you guys are

going to see my sketchpad right this is

just normal tracing paper it’s building

it is blur don’t worry kind of cool it’s

you just deal with it it is kind it’s

got a NASA flag to it so look I can’t

draw a perfect circle so I got this

super handy scotch

shipping packaging tape it’s super

technical right now

i’ma draw a little circle because I know

I want a circular logo less blurry now

right draw hopefully oh this is a new

show I can hit this and maybe a lot of

focusing ah there you go folks in your

focus a circle alright so right now I’m

gonna do a little sketch and so I know I

want it on it on a diagonal

all right can you guys see that yeah

okay so I’m gonna sketch in so I’m going

to just keep it nice and loose

and for those of you who are tuning in

who might not be you know as you know

and letter form design as something as a

class it’s actually really important and

you know I Emily I don’t know did you

take lettering and in school get to take

it with Leah Neal okay got it

so I think that that’s one of the one of

the classes it for me it definitely

makes a huge difference to actually

understand check that out look at that


christow going super fast to actually

understand weights to actually

understand just the nuances of letter

forms and to get to do it

so in lettering class what did he do

Emily during lettering what was the

assignments Cass signs are fine which is

what I’m using right now can you guys

see that there’s the pencil so you

drawing scripts so you start with a set

serif a black letter and then a script

did you do the clock out paint like with

a brush thing that’s lay off mix that’s

Lea yeah yeah I think she’s the only one

who does that who did we do that

yeah um so so right now I’m working on

line weights right I’m I want to point

out one thing here is you can see the

emphasis on a diagonal so the heaviest

parts of the font should be here see

this diagonal right there and where

there’s even a narrative within the

context or at least structurally within

the context you even have that choice of

like having the diagonal be so so thick

in the center it gives it a visual

anchor if that makes any sense right so

I’m like a play-by-play a football game

so I love it christow is drawing the

oles logo notice the emphasis on the set

point by having the thicker parts be in

the center so the weights of the script

are actually a little bit thicker and

they thin out as you go that gives you a

diagonal line okay that draws the eye

all right so now since I don’t have a

template I’m going to just sketch in

where that inner circle

etc exactly and that you know Chris

makes it look really easy but again a

lot of it is about practice and a lot of

it is about just sign up for a class you

know even even if it’s in your local

community college if there’s a letter in

class or calligraphy class that the goal

is not anything other than to get

experience and understanding the

fundamentals fundamentals fundamentals

fundamentals fundamentals fundamentals I

believe that you can teach anybody

design some people disagree some people

that people are born with it or that

they’re born with certain degree of you

know mastery of it but you can learn it

too you too can be a master designer

like master doe if you act now you can

order the typography kit from weight the

Barbican wrong show wrong show this is a

rupture yeah oh you know I’m not gonna

sit here I think we’re okay on time so

far time yeah for sure and then I know

what it is a sketch for like why would

you sketch this to show it to well I’m

gonna tell you that answer in a second

because I mean you can do this on the

computer it’s so much easier I can do

this in the photo shops so here’s a

mistake some common mistakes that

beginners in identity work like this

make one of them is to depend only on

the computer that’s one big mistake – I

see this happen very frequently don’t

design in Word okay now that’s – that’s

good though that’s too far back so let’s

go I don’t know why this is flipped the

opposite way on the camera you may have

a setting that the flexure that I don’t

think me address yeah

so what wasn’t real quick while he’s

addressing the flip is the idea that so

we’re really addressing as those of you

who might actually have a studio who

might have one of the more than two


Chris and I are sharing our knowledge

and directing projects if you’re smaller

if you’re an individual a lot of you

might say well I can’t really do this I

don’t have a team keep in mind what

Chris is going to share next and how he

actually worked on the execution of the

design of the well he’s doing the design

now in general but how he’s getting it

produced will give you a hint as to what

you can do – in order to grow your

practice and

more work also the other thing that I

see in our audience is that you might

not be a designer you might actually be

more of a strategist or you might be a

tech person who’s running an agency a

studio or web practice you know if you

feel comfortable mastering the brief and

a lot of those other components you can

always hire really good designers Chris

do you hire other designers to do stuff

like this for you I hire designers as

often as I can

why is that what what’s the reason why

you prefer you can do it yourself I can

but I believe that they’re experts at

what they do so I like to find designers

deep knowledge about what it is whether

it’s character design modeling concept

part a letter form design if they’re if

all they do is do black letter letter

form design I’d rather just hire them

what I do in this sketch is trying to

work out all the iterations beforehand

sighs man when things go yeah generally

like hierarchy of information those

kinds of things that’s why I can block

it up with pencil like this with my lead

holder and I like doing film they block

out the shot and then they give it to a

sketch artist and then the

cinematographer yeah so exactly a class

I sketch my own storyboards to and then

a higher storyboard artist to do the

actual drawing to clean up the

perspective all that stuff the tip is

does I do everything yourself can you

see there there we go there’s although

that’s on tissue ahead no pauses yeah

and what I’ll do right so I know

okay so let’s jump back into keynote now

let me switch this mode switch mode back

to Missy Elliott I think all my life

should be hip-hop metaphors it’s gonna

be the new show well you know and one of

the things that I think is really

interesting about seeing Chris work in

his process and comment like let us know

what you think of Chris actually working

on identity you made a lot of really

great comments when I was working on

  Pricing Design Work & Creativity

strategy last week and all right we’re

back right and we’re back so here you

can see that Emily one of our designers

she worked on a bunch of different

iterations we’re getting close here

she’s trying to figure out where to put

the year in which the company was formed

1984 the hierarchy the Coover British

Columbia as opposed to the salmon

fishing lodge and so that’s what we’re

working through did you show you to the

client No

got it at this long you know why not

normally I might show the client

something like this the reason why I

don’t need to

cuz we were agreed that the logo needs

to be in this ballpark and they they

just need to see it kind of finished

right and they trust me they’re they’re

not a a kind of company that is used to

working with design firm so I don’t want

overwhelm them with information but you

know that’s a good thing because there’s

a lot of people out there that are

working and some companies might not be

used to that so be gentle on your on

your clients yeah so you can see the one

in the lower left it’s getting pretty

close to where I can hand it off to this

person now I happen to refer to this

logo for Obon Jones and I reached out if

you used opens typography as a reference

as reference a like could it be like

this yeah and my intent the entire time

was actually to hire Obon and I got

lucky because sometimes they’re not

available they’re not interested or

they’re just too expensive and in this

case he was available and interest and I

could afford him so I’d rather just hire

him rather than work out of myself

because eight he’s in her bring the

little touches to it that can we asked a

ballpark of what you paid no I don’t

talk about okay great it’s but I could

afford it though yeah right say it was

between you know five hundred and two

thousand dollars let’s say yeah alright

so anyways so open he wound up doing

this sketch and he sent this to me nice

and it’s quite beautiful and yeah the

little thing that brush is really

perfectly placed of course graphic

designers know Obon is out of the UK and

if you want to look him up there’s his


Obon Jones on behind and while he was

working on it once I approved the pencil

sketch and again I did not show this to

the client

you just edges it this way it’s got to

be let open do this thing and I asked

him to to show me works in progress yeah

I mean just take photos just for

reference later on because I think it

makes for more interesting story I love

it so open his gracious enough to shoot

some photos with his I assume iPhone or

something while he’s doing this

one-handed and here’s his process and

he’s doing a pen and ink painting and a

pen and ink on just an ink like a Indian


watered down a little bit and he painted

this in it’s beautiful and here’s the

finished product the brush is always I

love it too later I really love the

texture and and the fact that you can

see that that is it isn’t perfectly

solid right so you asked me before to

the client have any pushback and they

did have a little bit of pushback so you

see that hook that’s on the top of the

Oh kind of

makes it look like Hanukkah pass so they

said you know they had they had more of

a question than a mandate that that must

be removed they said you know you think

people might miss read it as shucks

high-pass or something like gas of Hakka

ties and given that they’ve had some bad

experiences before with people miss

reading them and veg ability I didn’t

want to run into that so here we go this

is finished logo we cleaned it up I

still need to work on some of the

refinement the lettering in the texture

to make sure everything is legible but

that love us sign is actually from the

screen shutter is that in there what

little plus signs of Alexis’s hexer

source or to activate the negative space

gotcha it’s all attached right so let’s

look back this is where we started on

the left and remember the open Jones

logo on the right now open himself

design the logo so now it’s always and

there it is super badass and you you

asked to see some application yeah hey

you know out of context sometimes people

think it’s not gonna work and the beauty

of the way this logo was conceived was

that it could be stripped down just to

say oles or to have the entire circle or

mark on it like a little badge and there

it is well it’s funny that I can see

this being even like a t-shirt you know

in a retail establishment you know being

sold even you know sometimes it’s just

ironic t-shirts and like you know all

these exactly exist yeah yeah but this

is really a Hollister it kind of one of

those rounds yeah and actually that’s

what we’re doing with them how does it

fit into the context of the rest of the

brand like well I want to show you okay

but if you can see somebody wearing this

it gives you a feeling right it’s not

the brand but it’s part of it and I

started working on some hats for them

some messaging and so here’s where we

were doing something with for the young

and young at heart is a photo I took

these guys and here’s one of my dad and

there’s it’s got some brand attributes

in it but you know you get the idea for

a moment he’s a kid again

love it you can actually see it go pro

over there that’s right that’s my GoPro

that’s funny

yeah all right that’s it for me wow

that’s amazing so Chris first of all

thank you for sharing that that’s that

was awesome to see your process here the

lessons that I took away I want to see

what lessons you guys took away the

audience I took away the lesson and

summarizing the brand attributes into

only one or into two which is nice

because they paired together that really

defined the look and feel and the way

that the mood boards of the referee

his work and the process of getting from

you know a reference to the actual logo

was really like it was nice it was kind

of like it dropped in very smoothly and

and and it like a film director almost

working out kinda little details etc

that’s how you do masterfully or how you

masterfully do an identity because it

fits the context it’s not about you

that’s not your style

your style is din and mr. Roboto arigato

you know everything would be like super

modernist you’re going completely

outside of your staff and working on

something that you know is the right

thing to do

yes I was computing perfectly you guys

have questions what did you wait I got a

is not an hour I have to wrap I have to

jump okay you guys continue the

conversation what do we call it yeah

over time we have questions over time we

do over time all right you guys join us

on over time what’s the hashtag Jose

school live school live hashtag ask how

do they ask those questions and over

time school rock soccer global hangouts

we’ve left it we’ve gave given an extra

ten minutes at the end so I’ll just –

we’re hanging out with you guys for ten

minutes I guess Jen we’re just gonna

talk and chat okay well hope you learn

something you know it’s gonna take away

more than half an hour for me to show

you the letter form design but let us

know what you guys think

well a lot of suggestions right did you

like it share it do you like it yeah

thank you for saying em all right thanks

guys tune in next time



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